Now what I have found claims one thing to be true about the Emergent Church, but before I go there let me make a brief statement. After reading a blog by Kyle I understand that the movement of emerging is not united and therefore the spokesman of one group is not the spokesman of the whole. So for this blog I am not attacking the movement of emerging, but rather the Emergent individuals who discuss what I am about to talk about.
In my study of the church over the past decade or so there have been some major developments in the idea of what Scripture is. There was a time when a group of people, and these people still exist, came out and said that the Scripture is not inerrant. They were attacking the claim that Scripture is 100% truth without any error. Now this movement was refuted and among most of the church, at least American, it is no longer a major issue to deal with (though it still plagues liberal universities). Then there was the movement which said, "yes, Scripture is 100% true, but it isn't enough." This movement was headed up most by the charismatic movement which claimed new revelations. It had a major force behind it and even though it still has a large following, most have seen that the claimed miracles were fakes and Scripture once again stood as inerrant, infallible, authoritative, and sufficient.
Now comes the new movement of the Emergent Church. Now on the surface of this movement it looks like a group who wants to reach Christ with the Gospel. The problem with this is that they are attacking the Scripture. How are they doing this. They are calling it unclear. They aren't saying that it isn't true, simply that we don't have the means to fully understand it. Maybe that is why Brian McLaren, a leading spokesman for the movement said this "Welcome to our world. Being "right" isn't enough. We also need to be wise. And loving. And patient. Perhaps nothing short of that should "seem good to the Holy Spirit and us" (in the context of this article he discusses a couple who came to him to discuss homosexuality and he was unable to give an answer because of what might lie beneath the question. Then he suggest that a major study over the next five years be done by many different disciplines to see if we can come to an agreement). But I find the Scripture to be very right, and have no problem asserting that rightness. Moses had no problem telling Israel what was right, neither did the prophets. Then we come to the New Testament, the testament of grace, and Jesus tells us what is right as well does His follower who wrote the New Testament. Yet, McLaren says we need to do better then knowing what is right.
Then we have John H. Armstrong who speaks of the West as a post-Christian world and how we need to adjust out way, form a new church to fit into this world,
I am quite convinced that what we have is a "new" world. Christendom is plainly
dead, at least as we have known it for centuries. The West is secular and
post-Christian. If I am right about this then we need a "new" church to reach
this "new" world. Note that I did not say we need a "new" gospel. We need a
"new" church, one that is a clear embodiment of the gospel. This church needs to
re-imagine its identity as the "sent people of God." This "new" church calls for
"new" leaders. These leaders must be able to:
1. Read culture2. Model the mission 3. Empower others
Lest you think this is easy to do please think again. Few pastors are taught to read culture but rather to build institutions that reflect Christendom's ideals. And almost no boomer churches "model the mission," preferring rather to serve the needs of their narcissistic seekers in some way. And empowering others is not what most seminaries teach future pastors. We have our work cut out for us friends. This will demand a new kind of leader and a new kind of mission, which is why I borrow the word missional to describe what the church really needs. If I said "mission" a whole generation would think programs and professional pastors and evangelists. This is exactly what the church must give up if it is to reach the new world with the old
gospel.
He claims that pastors should be taught about culture and that the church should be built on the ideals of culture instead of Christendom's ideals. What does this mean? Do we do away with what the faith is built on and just teach feel good ideals? He says that seminaries aren't teaching future pastors to empower others. Now that might be true of some. My question is whether or not he is empowering anyone? He seems not to care at all about righteousness, simply pragmatic means of gathering followers in this new day.
Here are my questions. Is the world that much different from the days of our past? Are we that much more sinful/sinless? Did Jesus and Paul formulate their methods to the people? Most importantly, does the Scripture really even matter?
I think this comes down to the core of what Christianity is founded on...what do you guys think?
Naak, you might re-read the article by McLaren. He didn't say that he had nothing to tell them. He simply doesn't tell us what he told them.
ReplyDeleteWere I a presbyter, I'd consider my pastoral counseling sessions to be none of anybody else's business.
And in the bit from McLaren that you quote, he doesn't say what you accuse him of saying, that we don't have the ability to interpret Scripture, or that listening to God and doing right aren't important. He said that in terms of Christian discipleship and living out the gospel, "being 'right' isn't enough" and that we also need wisdom, love and patience. Right there in front of you, man. Isn't that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13? "If I don't have love..."?
And in reading your commentary, I wonder if you know what "Christendom" means; that has nothing to do with the Gospel or the stuff of the Christian faith.
What "feel good ideals" are you talking about? It's about modeling our life as the Church in the world according to God's mission for its salvation. That's not "feel good." That's the way of the cross, the way of death and service and resurrection.
I never heard of John Armstrong, but I do wonder how you know him so well as to be able to say, "he doesn't care about righteousness."
I don't think the people you're talking about would ever say that "Scripture doesn't matter." They probably don't think it matters for the same reasons and they probably understand the Mission of God differently than you. Why do you have the corner on missiology so that there's no room for reformation?
If I wanted to grow a big church, I'd tickle folks' ears by telling them the Bible is a plain-to-understand document, completely trustworthy in its context and my interpretation of it, and that it's essentially basic instructions before leaving earth.
But I wouldn't be faithful to Jesus, the Bible, or the faith of the Church.
They're not saying what you accuse them of saying, so no, it doesn't go to the core of what Christianity is founded upon. Your own faith, perhaps, but not biblical Christianity.
Kyle,
ReplyDeleteAre you agreeing then that being right isn't enough? What then is enough? You say that wisdom, love and patience need to be added to right. I find that they are part of it. To me right is the same as Truth. The Word of God is truth, and the Word of God is right. It makes very clear what is right and what is wrong by defining truth.
If some one asks me a question on a certain issue I am compelled to give them the truth, even if they might not like it. We try not to be offensive with America's moral issues like premarital sex, homosexuality, abortion, divorce and so on. We say we have to be sympathetic to someone who might disagree. But I find that going directly against the New Testament writers and those quoted. When Jesus spoke from the mount He didn't seem to have a problem cutting people at the heart with the truth. He was very loving in His message I am sure, yet He said what truth was.
When Paul wrote his letters to the churches He was quite loving and caring, which was his very nature. Yet, when it came time to address the issue he never came short of calling a sin sin. And he strongly opposed those who were distorting the gospel, saying that if any do so let them be accursed.
Yet, in this modern day, this new world, men are calling us to leave what Christendom is established on. You ask me what I think Christendom is. I think it is the Church of the living God. And the ideals of Christendom are the doctrines which our faith is established on. When you attack Christendom ideals you attack the faith.
Then you attack me and any others who claim to have certainty in the Truth. Are we not to be certain? Is the Word of God that confusing? Was Peter not certain; was Paul not certain; were Luther and Calvin not certain; was Spergion not certain; and was not Edwards certain. I am certain on what I believe and I don't call that tickling ones ear. I find it knowing the truth, and proclaiming it. And from what I have seen, those who proclaim truth are usually the ones who receive the most persecution, not usually the biggest following.
As for me, I will follow what Paul wrote,
"But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:14-17)
Maybe I'm just a fool though
I think it would be good for both of you to sit down and define some common terms. I think you're talking past each other. It seriously might benefit you to agree upon what you mean when you use certain words.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I'm immediately concerned about, Naak, is where you write, "Now this movement was refuted and among most of the church, at least American, it is no longer a major issue to deal with (though it still plagues liberal universities)." I'd be interested to know on what grouds you make this assertion. My concern is that it's not entirely clear that everybody has the same innerantist stance that they claim to. It's another issue of using one word in two ways. I'm willing to say that the scripture is inerrant on the things it claims to be inerrant upon. But, I've been told many times that this isn't enough.
As for liberal universities... I get tired of that phrase. Whether it exists or not, the terms "liberal" and "conservative" have lost much of their meaning, it would seem, over the past few years.
Please don't misrepresent this comment as attacking you. Rather, it's my suggestion that you and Kyle try to define some terms before continuing and an issue that I'm considering with you.
Good points Josh. And as for my use of the word liberal, I understand that it is some times used improperly and doesn't carry much meaning. I was using it in the context of what I was talking about. Schools that don't follow the inerrant view of Scripture. And that is a liberal movement from the history of religiously founded schools. I don't mean liberal in the context of social issues or anything else in this statement.
ReplyDeleteYou are also right in saying that Kyle and I are not communicating well. We might agree on what we are talking about, but don't understand eachother's language well well enough.
Thanks for the help.
Naak, Christendom is the organization of (Western) secular society in such a way that the secular society supports the Church and serves the Church by making its structures and habits conducive to Christian formation.
ReplyDeleteTo work from a Christendom mindset is to assume that society's structures should bear the burden of disciplining Christians, rather than the Church.
That's the working definition of "Christendom" assumed by any book on Christian mission published in the last two decades, "conservative" or otherwise.
Regarding "inerrancy:" I have yet to see proof (in the form of cited quotations) that Christians have always and universally believed in a mechanical dictation theory of Scripture or defined inerrancy as many Southern Baptists do. I don't know how you define it, and I don't pretend to, but what I usually here from people works not from the text of scripture itself, but in the language and values of the Enlightment.
And it sounds to me like you equate your own appropriation of "the truth" with Truth. Am I mistaken?
And yes, I think that knowing what is right is not all that's involved in knowing the Truth. Love, patience and wisdom - knowing what to do with the Truth and how to live in it - are necessary to Christian discipleship.
And no, I've not attacked you. I've not called you a "fool" or any name at all - but I have attacked your argument. I have not maligned your faithfulness to Jesus. You have, however, done that in regard to McLaren and this Armstrong guy.
Kyle,
ReplyDeleteI have never heard the word Christendom used in that manner. I guess in my lack of reading modern writing I was not aware of its change. When I say Christendom I refer to the Christian world or the church. Much like the authors I most familiar with. Sorry for any confusion and of course I do not support the idea that society should disciple people. That is utter foolishness.
If you look at the church as a whole you will find most Christians agree that the Bible is the Word of God and inerrant. I'm not saying that most think that God dictated word for word everything written, though many do believe this. Rather that God revealed His truth and allowed His writers to write under the supervision of the Holy Spirit who inspired it. That is to say that man writes what he writes in his own style, but the Spirit does not allow for error. I think if you judge the church as a whole over the past 2000 years you will find this to be most accurate opinion.
Lastly, you may have not meant to attack me, but you attacked my core. I am not upset by this...it is a common thing. But when you attack the nature of who I am, I am therefore attacked. But I understand that you have not attacked my faithfullness to Christ. And I have not done that to either of the men I quoted. I am in no way saying that they are not faithful. I am simply claiming that they have error in their thoughts. You may have miss understood what I was saying in a previous comment.
When I said that those who attack the truth should be accurse according to Paul I was not speaking about these men. I was just going to the extreme to show my point that above all...truth matters. I hope this has not turned to an arguement, though I am afraid it has. I appologize if I have offened you. God bess