For this discussion I want to talk about something that many agree with (such as me), many hate, and many don't really know what it is talking about. I will define it according to the way I see it and then I look forward to seeing what some of you think about it.
Lordship salvation is the teaching that a man is saved by Christ after receiving Him as Savior and submitting to His Lordship (Lordship-Christ is Lord, whether or not one believes it or not). It states that a man is saved by grace through faith alone and should not be confused with legalism. It states that the man who is saved will gradually digress in sin. It states that the man who is saved will gradually progress in good works. It states that the man who does not have these two characteristics is carnal (carnal-unregenerate). This statement does not state one is capable of loosing salvation, but might suggest that salvation was never genuine. (Please don't be nit picky or my defination, but try to go with the general meaning of it)
In laymen terms it means that if God saves one and His Spirit indwells one, one will begin to live according to the commandment which Christ gave. If one doesn't have any change in his conduct then there was no salvation.
What do you all think? Can a person be saved and remain in sin? Or does one have to have a change in character if saved? Can one have Jesus as Savior and not have Him as Lord?
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ReplyDelete1 John seems to suggest, at least in my interpretation, that Christians will sin but that they should not "go on sinning." Where the distinction is, I don't know.
ReplyDeleteOk, I lied. That post STILL isn't ready, sue to my heretical procrastination.
ReplyDeleteMike, sounds good just let me know when it is ready. I look forward to reading.
ReplyDeleteJosh, you point out the 1 John speaks about it, so do other authors and speakers in the New Testament. It sounds like you submit to Lordship Salvation, but don't want to draw a defined line in the sand to hold one up to and see if one is a Christian or not. I agree with you on that. Though at some point we need to be able to judge a man’s salvation, even if our own.
For the sake of example so you think that a man who have been a "Christian" for 20 years who still practices (continuous) adultery, practices illegal business habits, and does nothing for the sake of Christ apart from attending the Sunday worship service and giving his tenth is a true believer?
Brandt,
ReplyDeleteYes, I agree to that the Scripture supports this idea of Lordship Salvation. I was just asking to see where my blog friends stood on the issue. But I have found that most who dissagree with this are Baptist...so I was just testing the waters to see what others think in different sects.
Rather, I'm willing to say that the distinction between a sin and "going on sinning" is blurry.
ReplyDeleteAs to your example, I don't know that I'm willing to come down on it anywhere except to say that the church should be reconciling this individual and there should be some church discipline.
Now I strongly agree with you that reconciling this person to God should be a priority and the first stage of discipline should be put into effect as soon a possible, and hopefully this person will repent.
ReplyDeleteHere is my problem, when reconciling him what are we reconciling him to: the church or Christ? My belief is that when God justifies someone that person in born again and God puts in Him His Spirit which starts the work of sanctification with the aid of God's Word. Now I understand that we all remain in sin to some degree, I'm not claiming that I have found or achieved perfection. But, over the past five years, since my salvation, my life has continued to become more holy even though I sin and fall away at times.
The problem then can be defined like this maybe. If some one never has a change at all and his life never progresses toward holiness can we honestly believe that person is a new creation and when ministering to that person do we approach them as a fallen believer or as a false convert.
And in doing this do we concern them about their own salvation, or do we reassure them of their salvation because of the day they walked down the isle or prayed a prayer.
We need to remember that this isn’t simply for doctrinal or theological debate...this is about the welfare of souls.
I'd say we approach the person you speak of as, simply, a person. We cannot reconcile them to God but only to the Church. Only God can reconcile the person to God, but we as the Body of Christ can reconcile this person to ourselves as the Church.
ReplyDeleteAs for the welfare of souls, the Church does not redeem anybody but redemption is often found through the Church.
As for the "new creation," I believe that this is a difficult passage to consider. Often, we immediately assume that the "new creation" is some sort of post-conversion-person. As if a magical and instantaneous conversion has occurred turning the person totally from sin to total purity. However, the passage simply says that "there is a new creation." It doesn't explicitly say that this creation is this new person. It is through our interpretation that we arrive at this point.
As for the individual of our consideration, I believe that we must attempt to reconcile them to the Church so that the practices and actions of the Church can have some redemptive presence in their life. Furthermore, this reconciliation will result in further discipleship and education. We should not, immediately, leave them to their own devices but, rather, invite them to act in and be part of the Church. But, we must not compel them to do so. It is only valuable that they make this decision for themselves.
When we say that we are "saved," I think it might be better to say that we "have faith that we will be redeemed from ourselves and sin and have eternal life hidden in God." "Saved" seems so "past-tense."
Josh,
ReplyDeleteGreat stuff man. I love it. This has been something I have struggled with for a while now and you, I think, have pointed me in the right dirrection. Thanks man